If you buy an old house in DeKalb, you MUST get a low-flow toilet
I appreciate what DeKalb County is trying to do here, but it seems pretty stupid once you dig into it. Starting in a few months, if you buy an older house in DeKalb County and it doesn’t have low-flow toilets, the county won’t hook up water to your house.
The move was praised by most people. From the article:
“This is really a pretty big deal,” said Sally Bethea, executive director of the Upper Chattahoochee Riverkeeper. She said metro Atlanta will face increasing pressure to conserve water as the population grows.
Here’s the catch - DeKalb County gets their water from the Chattahoochee River and returns the wastewater there. The “wasted” water that is flushed down the old toilets goes back into the river and finds its way to Jim Woodruff Dam in Florida. This is where they measure the flow of water coming from Atlanta to determine how much more to release from Lanier. As long as the water makes it back into the river, it’s not depleting the level of the lake. Here is a post from a few weeks ago where we went into more detail about that.
Granted, not 100% of the water makes it back, so this move will save a little bit of water. Some is lost to leaks, some evaporates, etc. However, given the horrible real estate market we’re in, anything that makes things hard on people trying to sell their house seems like a bad idea. From the article:
Barbara Campbell, president of the DeKalb Association of Realtors, wondered how the county would enforce its mandate on sellers to disclose their old toilets. Selling a house is hard enough, especially in this economy, she said. “When you’re selling your home, I don’t think you’re going to be announcing that.”
I agree.
March 5th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
On the other hand, as far as expenses go when prepping your house for sale, a few low flow toilets (~$150ish and an hour or so per to install?) is just a drop in the bucket. If this encourages people looking to sell to do the upgrade themselves, I suppose it’s win-win.
March 5th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Is it not the case that some of the flow from Buford dam is in order to have fresh water in the river to mix with the sewage effluent? and if there is less effluent then they wouldn’t have to release as much water?
March 5th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
hey…..HEY!
March 5th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
Joe, you are right if the seller has plenty of cash & equity, but consider the person who is trying to get out of a sub-prime mortgage that is bankrupting her. A plumber wants $1000 to replace three toilets in the house. She’s barely making her mortgage anyway and has no equity in the house because of the declining housing prices. Maybe this $1000 is what breaks her back and means she gets foreclosed on instead of being able to sell.
More good intentions by big government causing unintended consequences. I’m not convinced the gain here is worth the pain.
March 5th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Well, there are a few things to consider -
They did pass the rebate of $50 to $100 per toilet. And there is an exemption for refits that would exceed $1000 total, as well as homes that are in foreclosure.
And, there’s no mandate that you must do it beforehand. In RichS’s example, you may sell the home for a few hundred less and reveal that the new owners have to do the work. I’m sure many people will take that option.
March 6th, 2008 at 6:27 am
In all seriousness…..low flow toilets often require two (or more) flushes.
Not that toilet flushing in any way is contributing to low levels at Lake Lanier, but thought I’d mention it anyway (I’m on a quest to become the top commentator this month! - Vote For Little!)
March 6th, 2008 at 7:00 am
Hi All,
I’m a Westerner, watching the development of your water crisis over time. We’re headed for as big a trainwreck as you are, and quite frankly, we’re just as dumb (if not more so), so I hope that I won’t offend too much.
I’ve been reading this blog, and the situation around the crisis for the last three months. Most of the stuff on this blog is about small changes. I’ve got some bad news– small changes aren’t gonna cut it. As long as people feel entitled to sprawl, bluegrass and their own personal swimming pools, sooner or later, (probably sooner) your lake’s gonna run dry. Catching water in a bucket in your shower isn’t gonna make a dent.
Asking for people to change out low-flow toilets is such a small thing. If you can’t ask for that, what can you ask for? You think you’ve got housing value issues now. Imagine if you don’t have water.
Like I said, we Westerners are just as dumb as you. Where I live, we’re pumping our aquifer dry, and everyone knows it. But I’m pleading with you– think about what an incredible example for the rest of the nation if you Atlantans got together and just said, on a whole-scale level “Some of the dumb stuff that we know is dumb just has to go. We’re not going to waste more time trying to move the state line, or trying to figure out how to save people’s lawns, or sanction the foolishness and vanity of personal swimming pools– we’re going to be a real community, pull together, and get our act together.”
I really hope you all do. I mean this totally sincerely. Because if you can’t make major changes, I’ve got a sinking feeling that Atlanta is going to end up being an example– and not in a good way. In fact, when you run out of electricity because of no water for your powerplants, it ain’t gonna be pretty.
March 6th, 2008 at 10:05 am
Atlanta will be fine.
Reality is, with all the rain we’ve been having, and given the fact that releases from Lanier continue, we should be using as much water as possible so that our municipal water authorities will have more funds available to prepare for the future.
bgawwwwk!
March 6th, 2008 at 10:11 am
Chuck - Our situation is different in that unlike the western U.S., we have plenty of rain and plenty of water. I know - that’s a strange statement and will raise some eyebrows.
Truth is that there is more than enough water from just the rains in the north Georgia area to support Atlanta. And we are not drawing down an aquifier like many areas of the country.
Our problem here is mostly one of prioritization. We have three large demands on the system - a major city, a couple of power plants, and fish & wildlife concerns. Last fall when this started becoming a crisis, the fish and wildlife concern in Florida was depleting the water supply from north Georgia at a rate of ten to twenty times more than the Atlanta metro area.
We have some parallels to the problems in the western U.S., but also some major differences. As much as Atlanta is bashed for being built away from a major river, it was not built in the desert nor is it’s water supply based on an aquifier that when depleted may take hundreds of years to refill.
March 6th, 2008 at 10:33 am
ChickenLittle: The low flow toilets use less than half the water, so having to flush twice is still a benefit. Also, according to this, the new ones are designed a little better (maybe you have to shell out some more money):
Josh: I can’t find any official information on how much water needs to be mixed with Atlanta sewage, if any. This is a problem that I’d like to investigate more.
WhatTheChuck: I know what you mean. I used to live out west it’s kind of sad to see how good the people have it here but still can’t seem to make it work. I’m not so sure they (we) are capable cleaning up this mess, the government and the people here seem more interested in blaming their neighbors than fixing their problems themselves. Who knows, maybe this drought will start a trend in zeroscaping and limits on growth or other reasonable solutions.
March 6th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Comparing the climate or drought in the Southeast to that of the West is like comparing apples to lemons.The SE is very humid,temperate,even sub-tropical in many areas,and a drought in the West is of much more severity and length.The problem down here is partly due to lack of rain,but mostly to poor planning and uncontrolled population-in that sense,the SE and West do have similar problems.
March 6th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Of course the people flocking tn both the Southeast and the West seem to have the same idealization of both areas-that they are moving to a paradise with no blizzards where they dont have to plan for or worry about anything.And we southern natives didnt have to worry so much in the past because we didnt used to have so many people from everywhere else crowding down here.
March 6th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Andrew & Josh -
I don’t have a great answer for you about how much water needs to be mixed with the sewage from Atlanta to meet water quality standards downstream, but I will say that the discharge rates from Lanier for last month were in the low 600 cf/s range.
Clearly that is enough release to meet Atlanta’s needs and water quality issues. It is possible that the number could be less, but it is certainly not more.
Oddly, that number would go up if we had more people on sewer, however the minimum release levels for downstream users would go down and that is generally the situation. We are most often releasing to meet the needs of downstream users after the losses in Atlanta metro, not just enough to serve Atlanta & maintain water quality.
March 6th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Greetings,
I live in Cincinnati and like Chuck from the West, I am watching the drama in Atlanta unfold. Your fair city is becoming an early test case for America during the Anthropocene Era.
For maximum water conservation and free fertilizer to boot, the well written, “Humanure Handbook” by Joseph Jenkins provides a solution for anyone living on a standard suburban lot or larger. As Jenkins puts it: “There are two kinds of people, those who shit in their drinking water and those who don’t”.
Under normal circumstances, the average person flushes about 20 gallons of water down the toilet a day. Atlanta could save several million gallons of water daily without substantially endangering public health. Urine is not the problem. It is sterile when fresh from a healthy person. Feces is comprised mainly of dead bacteria sloughed off of our microbe organ in the colon and requires about a year to safely compost.
Realistically of course, there is no way that the American public is ready for a discourse on handling night soil.
March 6th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Actually a lot of the water that Dekalb takes from the Chattahoochee is not returned to the Chattahoochee via toilet flushes because a substantial fraction of Dekalb water is transferred into the Ocmulgee River Basin where it is discharged as treated wastewater. This transfer was estimated in 2003 at about 43 million gallons per day. Low-flow toilets do help to maintain Chattahoochee flows when the water would otherwise have been transferred to the Ocmulgee by Dekalb.
March 6th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
absitively:
You might enjoy this article at Reality Sandwich that discusses Jenkins’ book:
http://www.realitysandwich.com/how_save_world_pooping_bucket
-st
March 6th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
‘Anthropocene’?Has the Holocene ended already?
An early test case.Great.Atlanta has been reduced to lab-rat status.
As for the poop-bucket thing….just where in hell would we store/dispose of THAT much poop?Human waste doesnt make good fertilizer because we’re not herbivores.Manure from meat-eaters(including humans)cant be used as fertilizer.
If these kind of situations teach we dumb-ass humans anything,it should teach us that if we dont want to be lab rats,we should stop breeding like them,and get control of our population.
March 6th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
ST:
Ah yes…. the five gallon bucket. :o)
March 6th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
The Asians have been using humanure as a crop fertilizer forever. “Farmers of Forty Centuries” by F.H. King is a definitive text.
March 6th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
RE: South side native; feces from meat eaters
Oh, so if everybody was vegetarian we wouldn’t need an acre of corn to feed every cow or pig. We could save all that water from irrigation and slacking the animals thirst while making available a limitless supply of fertilizer.
Bravo! Let’s make a law!
March 6th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Someone keeps missing the point…allowing cows and pigs to become extinct due to zero meat comsumption would just mean room for MORE PEOPLE,MORE OVERPOPULATION!”Asia has been using human manure as fertilizer forever”yeah,and theyre overpopulated AND STARVING!
March 6th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
The long history of recycling of every organic resource back into food production certainly contributed to the high population density of Asia. Paradoxically, their traditional farming methods are clearly effective in supporting human life.
March 7th, 2008 at 10:39 am
Heh, my personal opinion is that the solution to a lot of environmental problems is teaching people to have less children on average. A lot of environmental and resource issues would be relieved if there were lower growth rates. Of course, I disagree with the Pope and the current U.S. administration over the methods that might be accomplished but that’s getting off topic.
Kristin: Go look at the “don’t put a bucket in your shower” thread. There’s a link to a pdf that shows how much inter-basin transfer there is. I calculated roughly 10% of the Atlanta metro area treated water doesn’t end up in the Chattahoochee again because of this.
March 7th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Oh, and here’s an interesting bit of news for those of you in the human waste is good manure crowd. EPA has been promoting the use of sewage sludge since 1978, but there’s been some problems. The money quote:
Granted, if you look at the contaminants that caused they damage, they were all industrial ones: Thallium, PCBs, arsenic and some other heavy metals. This means that if the waste treatment plant were doing what it was supposed to be doing, and the EPA was doing what it was supposed to be doing, this would have been okay. Who wants to bet that the city of Atlanta’s sludge is treated correctly? Not me.
March 7th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
P.S. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some upstream violations as well (i.e. the people who produced those contaminants and released them).
March 7th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
The contaminants in sewage sludge, which make it problematic as a fertilizer do not come from humanure. Sludge is a different material.
March 7th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Im just curious about the low-flow toilet rule,if it were to become a rule in my county…what about we peasants who rent older apartments?I cant afford $150 for a new toilet(Im posting from my phone since I cant afford a pc either) and think it should be the landlord’s responsibility.Can the county force low-income folks to install one whether we can afford it or not?
March 8th, 2008 at 6:57 am
How about if I buy a NEW house in FULTON county?