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	<title>Comments on: Don&#8217;t put a bucket in your shower</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/</link>
	<description>Keeping you informed about the Georgia drought.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:36:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Atlanta is still losing a lot of water to leaks &#124; Atlanta Water Shortage</title>
		<link>http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-3352</link>
		<dc:creator>Atlanta is still losing a lot of water to leaks &#124; Atlanta Water Shortage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:52:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-3352</guid>
		<description>[...] leaks are a bigger waste of water than the water you flush down your toilet.  As we&#8217;ve said before, water going down the drain isn&#8217;t necessarily &#8220;wasted&#8221;.  However, water that [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] leaks are a bigger waste of water than the water you flush down your toilet.  As we&#8217;ve said before, water going down the drain isn&#8217;t necessarily &#8220;wasted&#8221;.  However, water that [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gwinnett County businesses allowed to use treated wastewater &#124; Atlanta Water Shortage</title>
		<link>http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-3112</link>
		<dc:creator>Gwinnett County businesses allowed to use treated wastewater &#124; Atlanta Water Shortage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:41:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-3112</guid>
		<description>[...] again, it seems that some people don&#8217;t understand how things work. From the article: Every day, 18 million gallons of waste water is treated at Gwinnett’s F. Wayne [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] again, it seems that some people don&#8217;t understand how things work. From the article: Every day, 18 million gallons of waste water is treated at Gwinnett’s F. Wayne [...]</p>
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		<title>By: If you buy an old house in DeKalb, you MUST get a low-flow toilet &#124; Atlanta Water Shortage</title>
		<link>http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-3023</link>
		<dc:creator>If you buy an old house in DeKalb, you MUST get a low-flow toilet &#124; Atlanta Water Shortage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 20:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-3023</guid>
		<description>[...] As long as the water makes it back into the river, it&#8217;s not depleting the level of the lake. Here is a post from a few weeks ago where we went into more detail about [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] As long as the water makes it back into the river, it&#8217;s not depleting the level of the lake. Here is a post from a few weeks ago where we went into more detail about [...]</p>
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		<title>By: rkolter</title>
		<link>http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-2951</link>
		<dc:creator>rkolter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 18:13:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-2951</guid>
		<description>Aquaholic - Actually you make a good point, although we've discussed this in the past and reached two conclusions:

1) Evaporation loss is negligable.  While it exists, remember you are talking about evaporation only of the water you'd conserve by drawing less water from the river (2 gallons in my example).  And of that loss, you only can claim the loss due to evaporation that is greater than the evaporation that water would experience running down the river. 

2) Leakage is more significant, but remember that while much of Atlanta's sewer system is antique, sewage is not pressurized.  So for example, sewage doesn't really leak into groundwater, but groundwater can leak -into- the sewage system (groundwater is under pressure).  You're also not considering rainwater, which "leaks" into the system.  There are more leaky inputs than outputs, generally speaking, in a sewage system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aquaholic - Actually you make a good point, although we&#8217;ve discussed this in the past and reached two conclusions:</p>
<p>1) Evaporation loss is negligable.  While it exists, remember you are talking about evaporation only of the water you&#8217;d conserve by drawing less water from the river (2 gallons in my example).  And of that loss, you only can claim the loss due to evaporation that is greater than the evaporation that water would experience running down the river. </p>
<p>2) Leakage is more significant, but remember that while much of Atlanta&#8217;s sewer system is antique, sewage is not pressurized.  So for example, sewage doesn&#8217;t really leak into groundwater, but groundwater can leak -into- the sewage system (groundwater is under pressure).  You&#8217;re also not considering rainwater, which &#8220;leaks&#8221; into the system.  There are more leaky inputs than outputs, generally speaking, in a sewage system.</p>
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		<title>By: RichS</title>
		<link>http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-2941</link>
		<dc:creator>RichS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:17:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-2941</guid>
		<description>That's a great point David.  Actually this water is supposed to be returning to the Chatahoochee but the tunnel to do that was never built.  It was going to be dug underneath black neigborhoods - so was therefore a racist tunnel.  

That tunnel needs to be built.  The racial argument is a ridiculous reason not to build it, and the impact can be acheived will be enormous without having to ban swimming pools, or lose jobs from shutting down industires such as landscaping, bottling plants, agriculture, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a great point David.  Actually this water is supposed to be returning to the Chatahoochee but the tunnel to do that was never built.  It was going to be dug underneath black neigborhoods - so was therefore a racist tunnel.  </p>
<p>That tunnel needs to be built.  The racial argument is a ridiculous reason not to build it, and the impact can be acheived will be enormous without having to ban swimming pools, or lose jobs from shutting down industires such as landscaping, bottling plants, agriculture, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig</title>
		<link>http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-2936</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 05:52:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-2936</guid>
		<description>Mickey,

I like your idea in theory. Aside from the other questions/concerns listed on this post, I have two additional questions/conerns.  

1. does the Corps get reports from the water treatment plants on their discharges and then adjust their releases from Lanier based on that?  Because if the Corps doesn't know or care about treated water releases, then they're just going to release the same amount of water their manual tells them to. In that case, it wouldn't help save us anything. 

2. With the small amount of daily water that Atlanta uses compared to daily releases from Lanier, I don't think it would save enough to make a material difference.

But all conservation efforts are good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mickey,</p>
<p>I like your idea in theory. Aside from the other questions/concerns listed on this post, I have two additional questions/conerns.  </p>
<p>1. does the Corps get reports from the water treatment plants on their discharges and then adjust their releases from Lanier based on that?  Because if the Corps doesn&#8217;t know or care about treated water releases, then they&#8217;re just going to release the same amount of water their manual tells them to. In that case, it wouldn&#8217;t help save us anything. </p>
<p>2. With the small amount of daily water that Atlanta uses compared to daily releases from Lanier, I don&#8217;t think it would save enough to make a material difference.</p>
<p>But all conservation efforts are good.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew S.</title>
		<link>http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-2934</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:55:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-2934</guid>
		<description>So I just added up all the Chat-to something else and it's 73.6 million gallons a day on average.  A sizeable fraction. The Chattahoochee gains 23.6 millions gallons a day from the Coosa so that's still a net loss of 50 million gallons per day, 10% of Atlanta's water intake (using rkolter's number above).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So I just added up all the Chat-to something else and it&#8217;s 73.6 million gallons a day on average.  A sizeable fraction. The Chattahoochee gains 23.6 millions gallons a day from the Coosa so that&#8217;s still a net loss of 50 million gallons per day, 10% of Atlanta&#8217;s water intake (using rkolter&#8217;s number above).</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew S.</title>
		<link>http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-2933</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 04:49:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-2933</guid>
		<description>David T.  -- thanks for the link!  That's absolutely fascinating, I had no idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David T.  &#8212; thanks for the link!  That&#8217;s absolutely fascinating, I had no idea.</p>
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		<title>By: David T</title>
		<link>http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-2931</link>
		<dc:creator>David T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 01:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-2931</guid>
		<description>While the premise of "Don't put a bucket in your shower" is reasonable, in fact, for much of the Atlanta metro area (specifically, part of Fulton Co.and major parts of DeKalb &#38; Gwinnett Counties) this is complicated by a serious problem.  In these areas, water is taken from the Chattahoochee, but wastewater is treated and discharged into the South River / Ocmulgee river system.  So this water does not ever return to the Chattahoochee, but instead makes its way to the Atlantic seaboard.  In areas affected by this "inter-basin transfer" whether or not shower water etc. is sent down the drain will not make a difference to the volume of water in the downstream Chattahoochee River.  Overall conservation in water usage, however, remains extremely important. 

For further information about this inter-basin transfer problem in metro Atlanta, see http://georgiawaterplanning.org/Files_PDF/20060818_SAC_Discussion_Paper.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While the premise of &#8220;Don&#8217;t put a bucket in your shower&#8221; is reasonable, in fact, for much of the Atlanta metro area (specifically, part of Fulton Co.and major parts of DeKalb &amp; Gwinnett Counties) this is complicated by a serious problem.  In these areas, water is taken from the Chattahoochee, but wastewater is treated and discharged into the South River / Ocmulgee river system.  So this water does not ever return to the Chattahoochee, but instead makes its way to the Atlantic seaboard.  In areas affected by this &#8220;inter-basin transfer&#8221; whether or not shower water etc. is sent down the drain will not make a difference to the volume of water in the downstream Chattahoochee River.  Overall conservation in water usage, however, remains extremely important. </p>
<p>For further information about this inter-basin transfer problem in metro Atlanta, see <a href="http://georgiawaterplanning.org/Files_PDF/20060818_SAC_Discussion_Paper.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://georgiawaterplanning.org/Files_PDF/20060818_SAC_Discussion_Paper.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Aquaholic</title>
		<link>http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-2927</link>
		<dc:creator>Aquaholic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 14:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.atlantawatershortage.com/20080224/dont-put-a-bucket-in-your-shower/#comment-2927</guid>
		<description>RKolter is making the assumption that there is no water lost in the pipe system or during treatment before being returned to the river, and it's a very poor assumption to make. Most water systems lose at least 10% of their water to pipe leaks, and 10% loss is considered a very efficient operation. Also, if you've ever seen a sewage treatment plant, you probably noticed large, often churning, pools of water being treated. One thing that people really aren't talking about is evaporative loss and I'm certain you're losing more than you would think to evaporation from those treatment pools. So, the equation isn't as simple as one gallon out, one gallon back in; it's more like, one gallon out and what goes back in is one gallon minus water lost to leaks minus water lost to evaporation during treatment. In the end, if your goal is to fill a downstream reservoir, it is more efficient to use less water, leaving more water in the stream. (Yes there is evaporative loss from the stream, but ideally the stream should be bordered by forest which would help keep temperatures downa nd minimize evaporatioon).

And there are other considerations besides merely quantity of water.  Andrew S. has a good point - the less water in a stream the less water there is to dilute the pollution being put into the stream. And that extra gallon of water you take out of the stream to flush is a gallon of water that isn't availible to fish, mayflies, mussels, and crayfish. I know some people don't care about fish, mussels, mayflies and crayfish, but I do and I'm not very comfortable with people being flippant about their fate. Their well-being is a reflection of the health of the rivers - the same rivers we depend on for drinking water and our fishing and aquatic recreation industries. When stream animals are doing poorly, the wise person doesn't ask "why should we care about them," but rather "what's wrong with our rivers."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RKolter is making the assumption that there is no water lost in the pipe system or during treatment before being returned to the river, and it&#8217;s a very poor assumption to make. Most water systems lose at least 10% of their water to pipe leaks, and 10% loss is considered a very efficient operation. Also, if you&#8217;ve ever seen a sewage treatment plant, you probably noticed large, often churning, pools of water being treated. One thing that people really aren&#8217;t talking about is evaporative loss and I&#8217;m certain you&#8217;re losing more than you would think to evaporation from those treatment pools. So, the equation isn&#8217;t as simple as one gallon out, one gallon back in; it&#8217;s more like, one gallon out and what goes back in is one gallon minus water lost to leaks minus water lost to evaporation during treatment. In the end, if your goal is to fill a downstream reservoir, it is more efficient to use less water, leaving more water in the stream. (Yes there is evaporative loss from the stream, but ideally the stream should be bordered by forest which would help keep temperatures downa nd minimize evaporatioon).</p>
<p>And there are other considerations besides merely quantity of water.  Andrew S. has a good point - the less water in a stream the less water there is to dilute the pollution being put into the stream. And that extra gallon of water you take out of the stream to flush is a gallon of water that isn&#8217;t availible to fish, mayflies, mussels, and crayfish. I know some people don&#8217;t care about fish, mussels, mayflies and crayfish, but I do and I&#8217;m not very comfortable with people being flippant about their fate. Their well-being is a reflection of the health of the rivers - the same rivers we depend on for drinking water and our fishing and aquatic recreation industries. When stream animals are doing poorly, the wise person doesn&#8217;t ask &#8220;why should we care about them,&#8221; but rather &#8220;what&#8217;s wrong with our rivers.&#8221;</p>
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