DeKalb County might not require retrofitting after all
We mentioned a few weeks ago that DeKalb County was planning on requiring all homes build before 1993 to be retrofitted with low-flow toilets and shower heads before they could be resold. According to the Freshloaf Blog (whose source was a press release by the Atlanta Board of Realtors), “the lobbying group inundated commissioners with phone calls opposing the DeKalb ordinance.” The realtors fear that this ordinance would negatively impact the real estate market in the county.
If passed, this ordinance could save the county about 3.5 million gallons of water per day. The cost to retrofit most homes would typically be less than $450 — money which would be recouped within about three years from lower water bills.
The commissioners will vote on the ordinance on Wednesday, December 5th. Here is a PDF with the “Retrofit on Resale” legislation that has been proposed.
November 30th, 2007 at 11:25 pm
“The realtors fear that this ordinance would negatively impact the real estate market in the county.”
I used to work with realtors…the are THE MOST money hungry SOB’s I’ve ever seen. I hope they are the first to taste the harsh “realty” of thirst.
December 1st, 2007 at 1:07 am
Amazing. The most stark example of pursing tiny short term gains at the expense of huge long term losses I’ve seen in a long time. The real estate market will be non-functional in Atlanta by the end of next year the way things are going - yet even that prospect can’t create a moment of a reflection within the real estate industry.
December 1st, 2007 at 1:34 am
These greedy idiots don’t understand that if atlanta has water problems, then nobody will be buying houses here.
Realtors are usually idiots anyway.
December 1st, 2007 at 3:06 am
Realtors are worried because many homeowners in Georgia would like to sell to get out of here quick, but requiring them to install stuff delays the process.
December 1st, 2007 at 7:03 am
The term “Realtor” is trademarked and should be capitalized.
December 1st, 2007 at 9:24 am
“The term “Realtor” is trademarked and should be capitalized.”
and tarred and feathered…
December 1st, 2007 at 9:25 am
“Realtors are worried because many homeowners in Georgia would like to sell to get out of here quick”
this is why we rent. EVERYONE told us “oh you shouldn’t rent, it’s a bad investment, you’re just going to lose money. Renting is bad!”
I don’t see it being such a bad option now…
December 1st, 2007 at 9:50 am
Concerned, you should move quickly because renters will be kicked out first. Single family homeowners can weather the storm. Apartments and landlords must provide water and sanitary conditions. Once the water goes, most renters will up and leave , the apts will go under financially and be shuttered with anyone left being evicted. The potential lawsuits and financial distress will force landlords to terminate within their rights of lease agreements. I think owning your own land and property are best when faced with a crisis as it relates to housing. The water will come back somehow, sometime but probably only once the crisis hits unfortunately. As for me, I plan on choosing for myself when its best to leave.
December 1st, 2007 at 10:55 am
Those who rent/lease apartments in Georgia can sever their rental agreement, if the landlord is unable to supply sanitary water to them. Access to water is part of the contract, so if water service is ended or restricted, a renter can pack up and leave. Might not get back the security deposit.
December 1st, 2007 at 11:00 am
Notice how most of the city governments in Georgia are putting the burden of water conservation on homeowners and small businesses. Large corporate industries are not doing much yet to cut down on water use, nor are power plants on the Chattahoochee River cutting back either. There has to be across the board water rationing and that means water to Alabama & Florida as well.
December 1st, 2007 at 11:34 am
Sponge> Most middle class homeowners who got a loan over the last few years will be facing foreclosure should they chose to up and move out for whatever reason. You can use the euphamisms of “ownership” and of “weathering out the storm” but I can think of a few other descriptive phrases such as “trapped in a bad asset”, “immobile and forced to adapt to a lower quality of life” and “slave to the credit system” that would apply with equal relevance.
I hate to burst your bubble, but one doesn’t own a shred of the dirt beneath their feet, nor the mess of wires, pipes, and ducts we call a modern home unless they’ve paid off the loan. Today, thanks to a completely dysfunctional and unsustainable credit system based on the sin of usery, that loan is often four times the value of the depreciating asset that is meant to back it. The same naivite that allows us to accept this absurd situation as commonplace is the naivite that alows us to believe that a paltry piece of land with a complex maintenance disaster sitting on top of it, loaned to us by a bank no less, belongs to us, is an investment, and according to you, is a security blanket for national disaster.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Mobility is worth more than ownership at this point. Middle class, single family homeowners are the most succeptible in this tragedy. These greedy realtors aren’t doing you any favors with their appeals to the county comissioners. You will go down in flames, perhaps literally, because realtors don’t want to make a simple, $450 investment in the future. They’re already suffering and they will suffer more when the taps go dry from their irresponsibility. Heck if I was a realtor, I’d rent.
December 1st, 2007 at 12:04 pm
Nope, hate to disagree Atlantan. Ownership is just what I meant - flat out owning it or having the resources to either make payments or pay it off. Those fools who took the credit bait are in trouble. So, read what I said - OWNING. My point was that I PLAN TO DECIDE WHEN TO LEAVE, not a landlord - period. I think the subject of financially reckless borrowers and lenders are for a different post. Also, if you add together the cost of relocating, finding a new job, lost income, lower wages when you find a job for life, I think a homeowner in the end will come out better (unless you bought a $4M home on interest only). Property rights may be the last right we hold onto because its tangible. So as long as you can make payments or have assets to pay it off, you have options to take when you decide to take them. Real estate goes up and down and I knew that when I bought mine - the water will come back at some point and so will any decline in real estate. I believe many people will become rich off of this bubble bursting and getting in very low…We shall see, but renters better be packing now….
December 1st, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Sponge — You make a good point, but most “homeowners” only have a chunk of the house paid off. If things go dry, you won’t be able to sell a house for ANY amount of money for a while.
We also face the prospect of many people possibly losing their jobs. If you lose your job and find that you can get one in Dallas, you’re much better off losing your security deposit on a rental than you are trying to keep paying a mortgage on a house. Even if you were financially smart about how you did it, you still owe six figures on the house and you’ll have to come up with $1000/2000/5000/whatever every month to pay for it. With the Atlanta economy ruined for years at that point, it could be a long time before you’d be able to sell it for a reasonable price again.
Meanwhile, the renter simply lost his $500 security deposit and is doing just fine in Dallas.
December 1st, 2007 at 1:00 pm
Question is will employers stick around? If jobs are forced to relocate, they won’t return. Unemployment will hit hard if the water is out. I think home owners have the most to lose. Selling a home that no one wants or only will take for far less than you purchased it for will cause problems. Keep an eye on North Carolina. They have less water than you do. See what measures are being taken to see what the future will bring.
December 1st, 2007 at 1:09 pm
Hi Mickey - if it gets as bad as you say, the entire US economy will be in recession or depression as a result of it. So, jobs may not exist in Dallas or anywhere else for that matter. If everyone flees looking for jobs that “renters” typically have, those jobs won’t be there or the supply of labor will drive down wages exhorbitantly. If you leave your “owned home” you put yourself at greater peril. As an owner, I am still mobile. If people have been smart and saved money, they can go rent a condo in Miami or Seattle for at least a year without selling and still have their home to come back to. . I don’t want or plan to be a vagabond and a home is’nt an investment, its a place to live - period. The water problem will be solved but it will be brutal going through it. If you look at the aftermath of Katrina, I did not think New Orleans would ever make it back and that city lost basically everthing and not just water. NOLA still has a long way to go but I am amazed that people went back and conventions etc are now being held there. So, again, if you are one of those renters (not you mickey), better move soon to get a job in the new location - if you wait, there won’t be one. By the way, those SubPrimer borrowers are in trouble with or without a water crisis!! So, keep your property people!! It may be the only thing you can hold onto during and post crisis!
December 1st, 2007 at 1:15 pm
I really like the thought process that is finally emerging on the site - looking at he big picture and possible outcomes. That will lead people to demand solutions. The meaningless toil of how many CSF or of inflow or outflow is or how long the lake will last is boring and not really helpful at all. The lake will run out without significant rain within, lets say to be conservative, a year - period. Knowing that, how do we get a movement of a solution going!
December 1st, 2007 at 1:19 pm
Hi Islander, NO ONE is going to buy a house if the spigots run dry here. So, again, get out of debt, save, make your payments, pay off the house and remain mobile - no one is lashed by chain to the kitchen sink. With average sales day on market expanding to 180 days, if you didn’t put your house on the market in Oct, you might as well buckle down… Jobs will come back, look a New Orleans and it STILL has a levee and hurricane threat…
December 1st, 2007 at 1:25 pm
Sponge> I can only empathize with your frustration, we’ll see how things turn out for the homeowners. But as others have pointed out, you’re wrong. And as far as reading your mind in your implication of “ownership”. Reading what you wrote really doesn’t help a person assume this minority interpretation of outright ownership that you claim to be imply as opposed to the status quo “loanership” that the rest of the population is enduring. Good luck.
BTW: You don’t really state your own posture. Do you own (common interpretation)? Are you paid off on your loan? Do you rent?
December 1st, 2007 at 1:36 pm
Atlantan, not frustrated at all. Just a realist. You once again are reading your own thoughts into my thoughts. You appear to be one of those who is overextended - my position is rational to a rational financially savvy person in the current situation. Why are you getting so heated up over someone’s opinion anyway, unless you are a renter or a sub primer. btw, I am in the posture I suggest above - not sure why that’s not coming thru to you… Anyway, I am done responding to you…cheers!
December 1st, 2007 at 1:41 pm
Cheers Sponge. If it isn’t clear to you it’s clear to everyone reading your myriad of posts that you’re the one who is heated and in complete denial. Again, I empathize with your frustration, and feel sorry for you. It’s not an uncommon position to be in when facing a national disaster that seems to be ignored by government and the general population. Again “cheers”.
December 1st, 2007 at 2:01 pm
Interesting thread. I’ll weigh in on a couple points:
Firstly, the real estate market across the nation is in crisis right now due to subprime foreclosures, and analysts expect it to get much worse over the next years. October saw twice as many defaults/foreclosures as September. Atlanta’s market will suffer greatly from this ballooning crisis, even if rainfall was abundant.
As a downtown resident, I’ve been amazed at the rate of development for housing (Atlantic station, condo skyscrapers, loft complexes) over the last 12 months. Many of these new projects are likely to sit, unoccupied, as the market retracts. Add to this scenario the prospect of “no water” and Atlanta real estate has a bleak few years ahead.
I, too, enjoy the discussions here that reflect on the “what ifs” of the situation, as this is commentary we’re not getting from any other channels. But it’s equally important to collect and analyze data to gauge the development of the crisis. The work that people are doing on this website to track Lanier’s status will be more and more valuable as things get worse, and more people become mobilized to face it.
That said, I’m curious how everyone here imagines the next 12 months or so playing out, if the drought continues as projected. Will metro Atlanta soon face rotating water shut-offs and boil orders? if so, how soon? Will the deadpool yield enough water to keep things going for awhile, or is this just wishful thinking? What might be the first signs that quality of life is deteriorating for those affected?
One way or another, those of us touched by the ACF water system are likely to feel the effects of this drought personally in the coming months.
-st
December 1st, 2007 at 2:24 pm
You’re also giving bad advice. I do not recommend that people hold onto their property if they have any means possible to get out of it with their finances intact. As mentioned, the behavior of government and now these realtors is completely against all common sense and sense of responsibilty toward the people of Atlanta, but rather than outrage, we have denial.
December 1st, 2007 at 7:04 pm
Hey Realtors, way to go to enhance your “Realtor” brand and improve public standing.
December 1st, 2007 at 7:53 pm
If you have not had a chance to read this yet, there is an article that has been on the AJC website since yesterday and is the lead article in the Sunday print edition on this real estate developer that is pushing the concept of an inter -basin transfer from the Tennessee River as a long term resolution to this mess. My gut feeling is that he’s only just another guy looking out for his own interests as a developer and nothing else. Unless the state of Georgia and/or the city of Atlanta offer something really big to entice approval of this such as the promise to not place a second Atlanta airport in North Georgia or high speed rail service between Atlanta and Chattanooga there is very little chance of this taking place. Tennessee has strong laws in place that deal with this, and not only would they have to sign off on it, but both Alabama and the TVA would also.
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/2007/11/30/tennessee_1201.html
December 1st, 2007 at 11:13 pm
Sponge, you’re making a really big assumption here:
The water will come back somehow, sometime but probably only once the crisis hits unfortunately. As for me, I plan on choosing for myself when its best to leave.
Come from where? Canada? Desalinization? A neighboring state - with its own water crisis on its hands? At best, Atlanta faces years of water scarcity worse than most areas of the US with the exception of the southwest, which means chronic economic recession and government budget crises. If you’re able to tough it out with a steady income and a cistern, more power to you, but the assumption that the problem will be fixed once the reality can no longer be ignored by policy makers assumes that there is a solution.
December 1st, 2007 at 11:45 pm
I agree that he’s making a big assumption, but he’s probably (possibly?) right. The odds are good that we’ll eventually get enough rain to at least get the water turned back on. Maybe a tropical storm next year, or maybe not until 2009. Who knows?
There are some reasonable long-term solutions (including desalinization, more reservoirs, etc), but just nothing short-term.
The whole problem of duration is something I don’t think most people realize. Most folks I talk to that are scared of the possibility of going dry don’t realize that if we run out it could be for months. It’s one thing to run out of water for week — it’s quite a different thing to be out for six months.
December 2nd, 2007 at 2:14 am
Mickey, I don’t particularly disagree in the sense that it isn’t over once Lanier runs dry, but I do think the word “solutions” is a bit inaccurate, in that I think the days of being able to assume water will always be available without question in just about whatever quantity you want are over.
Reservoirs require net inflow into the system to exceed net outflow over a certain period of time, and I don’t know that there is much watershed left in the US that isn’t already being captured. Desalinization plants are a sort of nuclear option because they require enormous amounts of energy to run. They work (economically) to some extent for urban use, but if it comes to that for a locale, local agriculture will disappear, and industrial use won’t be far behind.
December 2nd, 2007 at 3:54 am
Atlanta’s water situation will be the straw that broke the camel’s back, if it hasn’t broken already. I say it time to buy Euros guys; actually all countries hold a certain amount of USD so no currency is safe, but most are better than the dollar. There is no reason to believe that catastrophic system failure on a global scale is out of the question because modern 20th century infrastructure, particularly the suburban sprawl in which everyone must drive to get anywhere, is completely incompatible with 21st century resource limitations.
Water shortage is the 800 lb. gorilla that will bring the unsustainable nature of America’s infrastructure to light. In Europe, most major cities has cisterns on rooftops to collect rain. It’s amazing that this is non-existent there for any major metropolitan city in the US. Check out this article:
http://www.djc.com/news/ae/11151114.html
I see enough shills for the American mortgage industry and scared homeowners trolling message boards and blogs trying to keep the real estate market afloat with their desperate please to hold and even buy. Pathetic really. Some guys are telling me it is the ultimate buying opportunity, my take is that as long as America wages war on its middle class and high paying factory jobs continue to be shipped overseas, then there will be only greater housing surpluses. Coupled with natural disaster, I see a buy low, sell lower situation ahead for a lot of naive real estate investors.
America cannot sustain the coming catastrophe that Atlanta is going to face. Actually, I personally believe that the US has every intention to use catastrophe in order to further promote paranoia among the citizens and further establish their last resort of totalitarianism before the tracking device injected, retinal scanned, branded hoard of insecure superconsuming cattle will kill themselves with an untreatable case of supervirus. You can thank corporatism for that.
December 2nd, 2007 at 7:15 am
The sky is falling, the sky is falling!
Can’t wait to come back here in a few years and read how “Sponge’ wished he had picked up a few homes during this temporary downturn in prices.
BGAWKKKKK!
December 2nd, 2007 at 12:05 pm
Chicken > sky is falling infers some rain > lol. There are some people who will try to take advantage, and buy houses at rock bottom prices, but if the drought becomes permanent then they get shafted too.
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:48 pm
Hope to god you are right chicken little. Probably a better than even chance that you are. If you aren’t - then the sky IS falling and just a few people are paying attention.
December 2nd, 2007 at 1:52 pm
And I disagree with the government mandating retrofit to low flow toilets. If the government really wants to do something - raise the price of water to a point that it would be stupid not to buy low flow. While we are raising the price around Atlanta - how about charging the users downstream also? This problem can’t be solved by metro Atlanta using less water. Everyone has to contribute to the cause.
December 3rd, 2007 at 2:02 pm
RichS > all the downstream power plants have to agree to a lower flow rate on Chattahoochee/Apalachicola river system. At present the old coal-fired power plant Scholz, located below Woodruff Dam/Lake Seminole in Florida, requires a flow of 3.2 billion gallons daily to operate. Flow has been reduced to 3.1 billion gallons and plant manager claims that flow below 3 billion is not possible. Scholz plant must be shut-down ASAP and flow cut by 50% at all the dams including Lanier.
January 17th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
I hope none of this will ever happen
January 27th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
No one has pointed out that there are 34 million and climbing, illegal immigrants in this country!!!! This is just another way they are affecting our lives period!!! If they get rid of them we will have cleaner air, less garbage, lower rent payments and deposits!, less pollution, MORE JOBS, and more water!!!! If you don’t believe this do the math!!! More babies were born to families other than americans last year. Why should I give up my house, food and my job and water, to accommodate them. (Oh, because they worked so hard to get here) What are our kids going to do??? And, anyone that thinks this is racist, keep your remark to yourself, IT”S THE DAMN TRUTH!!!! And, it is enough to get P—st about!!!